Here it is. After all the misguided guesses of women’s magazines, after all the insecure, and often homo-erotic posturing of those guys-only websites and male-oriented TV programs like the “The Guy Show,” and especially after all the hot air of Oprah Winfrey puppet, Dr. Phil (how anyone can sincerely take the advice of a man who sounds just like Hank from “King of the Hill,” God only knows) here are the top five things that men want from woman. Take notes, because these five things were carefully selected from many others, by a group of 4 twenty- something men who, through a stringent process of deliberation, celebration and eventual inebriation, came to a consensus at Future?s Bakery, just before closing time.
5. An absence of drama.
This would have been the #1 want, but since it is something that is next to impossible to get, it was moved to last place. It was kept on the list because, despite the futility of wanting it, there will always be hope. To be able to sit in silence, in a room and watch TV or read, for an extended period of time without having “the talk,” or without her worrying if her man is angry, will always be one of men?s most distant dreams.
Men are simple creatures, with the ability to sit with their friends, hour after peaceful, un-analyzing hour, and not say or do a heck of a lot. With women it?s a different story. Anywhere and everywhere is a potential for a little drama. That men fail to see and exploit all this drama lying uselessly about, is often the cause of much frustration in women. It?s my belief that deep in the heart of every woman, no matter how progressive and liberal minded, is a secret desire to stand on the edge of a high cliff, overlooking a storm-swept ocean, wearing a flowing Victorian dress, her long hair flowing in the wind as she contemplates casting herself, in an ever so gothic fashion, onto the rocks below.
This desire for drama can leave men sleep-deprived from too many 3:00 am emergency conversations, and completely shell-shocked from too many loaded questions. The lack of it would probably raise our life expectancy to that of our female counterparts.
4. A cute butt.
Not their own butt. Their girlfriend?s/wife?s butt.
This is not to say that a woman should have what fashion magazines define as a cute bum, but what the individual man defines as cute. There are many different guys out there so there are many different tastes.
For fear of becoming too crass, I won’t dwell on this topic long, but I will say this:
With the advent of low-rise jeans and growing popularity of g-strings, women’s so-called fashion superiority to men is being called into question. When they are worn properly, they have sex appeal. But when worn incorrectly, which is often the case, they are definitely not sexy. They lose all subtlety, and low-rise jeans then become a $100 excuse to have plumber?s butt and g-strings, especially when they are worn with low-rise jeans, winched up high above the hips, they say only one thing: I?m into wedgies.
3. Back scratches
Again, men are simple creatures. We have very simple needs. Having our back scratched is a pastime for men. Some have moved on to more advanced techniques like the message, but back scratching is where it all began. It is a simple, convenient and energy-efficient way to give your man affection, requiring something as easy as a hand up the back of the shirt. It is good to do it on a regular basis, but woman can also save it for a reward.
2. Sex
With women, it?s all about attention, when a where they can get it. With men, it?s all about sex, when and where they can get it. As Billy Crystal said, women need a reason for sex, men need just a place.
I think men have been given a bad rap because of their obsession with it. Those who dwell on it are labeled as shallow and obnoxious. Suggesting it to a woman, let?s say in a bar, is almost always taken as an affront. However, once in a healthy relationship, this affront quickly becomes something therapeutic, almost medicinal for the very same women. This change in their perception of sex has always left me stumped. One minute sex is a cheap insult, the next it?s a saving grace.
Poor men. To assume women want it is to be sexist. To assume they don?t want it is to be oblivious and insensitive to their needs.
All in all, I can?t see what the problem is. Sex is good. Sex involves cooperation and teamwork. Sex, if done properly, is satisfying for all parties involved. Sex is something you can feel. In other words, it?s real.
What?s attention? Can you touch it? Can you see it? No. Does it satisfy all parties involved? No, it satisfies only the object. While sex is a two-way street, attention is always one. In fact attention never fully satisfies because women can never get enough of it. Attention isn?t real.
I think that a woman is shallower for chasing a self-serving illusion than a man is for chasing a mutually beneficial act. My advice to single women is not to be shallow and go for sex.
It?s the second most important thing to men. Sex with someone they are in love with is preferable. With a complete stranger? Well, that’s all right too.
1. Sense of humour
I used to have a friend who had a thing for Asian women. These relationships were, for the most part, were passionate but short-lived. The problem was not a cultural thing, but a language thing. He kept on having to explain his jokes, and she hers. One could say that only if they put a little more effort into it, the relationship would have worked. But then, what happens to a joke when it is over explained? Like the joke, I guess they both looked at each other and said: ah, forget it!
For guys, being able to make you laugh, and you being able to make them laugh, is the most important thing. A person’s sense of humour encompasses and pervades much about themselves: intellect, knowledge, wit, tastes. To have the same sense of humour with a person means that you can not only understand and care for a person, but most importantly you can “get” them. And when you get a person, you can love them. And love is what it?s all about, right?
I hope this puts the record straight.
Rocco, thank you for your brave and informative piece. I have spent a month wandering around asking men what it is they don’t understand about women when they complain that they don’t understand women. For some reason, they wouldn’t tell me, which I found mysterious. Thank you for clearing up some of my confusion. Now I see that it would lead to such dramatic and complicated conversations as you say men hate. (I know a lot of men who, however, love nothing more than to talk about Hegel, etc.)
By the way, don’t underestimate the pure emotional satisfaction of standing on a windswept cliff in long skirts. Try it some time. Who-ee. What a rush!
In addition to this, we would also like Celine Dion to go into cow-milking rather than singing, as she is already milking many naive people for all they are worth with her annoying unoriginal capitalist ballads. In addition to this we would like the Oscar stripped from Julia Roberts as her portrayal of Erin Brockovich was tiring and her ungrateful acceptance of the award shows that she is a classless and untalented actress. Finally we would like Oprah Winfrey to keep her grimy “Book Club” stamps off of books that you can’t read while listening to Kenny G at a low volume. Thanks, the management.
To be fair, I have received my share of 3 AM phone calls from drama kings who made Lear and Mercutio look like potheads. From my experience, you guys like drama too; you just like it with lots of explosions, pottery shards, car crashes, broken beer bottles and loud weeping. There’s drama and then there’s drama followed by calls to the cops or crisis hotline, boyo.
I don’t quite follow your logic as to why women are shallow, Mr. Deep and Meaningful Penis; however, here’s some statistics compiled from the Latchkey archives, presented for your convenience and understanding in a concrete, tangible, “real” format:Female columnists/commentators (Dorothy, Lisa, etc) asking where this relationship is going: 0Women saying the words “we need to talk”: 0Women in flowing Victorian dresses threatening to cast themselves from cliffs/balconies: 0Stories about men these women have kissed on New Year’s: 0Rocco mentioning the benefits of sex: 4Rocco discussing the benefits of “quickies”: 2Rocco discussing the correlation between eating olives and getting erections: 1Other sexual notes, by Rocco, about getting laid, one-night stands, etc: 5Stories about men Rocco has kissed on New Year’s: 1
Dorothy,I wasn’t going anywhere near abuse or rape in my commmentary. Yes there are abusive and horrible men, but simply mentioning that in an discussion of the sexes won’t automatically make you right. Anyway I was talking about the middle ground you know, day to day things. And in the day to day life, when it comes to drama, I have yet to spend an entire afternoon listen to a male friend complain about why, oh why, didn’t his roommate *sob* say goodbye before he left to go on trip. (“Doesn’t he like me?”) I have to say when it comes to fixating on something, and rubbing the salt in twounds, sometimes women can be female versions of George Costanza.ValentinoI’m not sure where you’re coming from, but if you are taking the piss out of female celebrities, stop right there, because deep down inside you know, you really really know that Meryl Streep is better then Di Niro and Al Pacino. In “Bridges of Madison County” she played a better Italian then either of them have. Jaywalker,I never said I wasn’t obsessed with sex, andI never said women were shallow, but their relentless need for attention is more superficial then a man’s constant want of sex. Think about it, in the end, what does it all come down to anyway? Attention, or sex? And no one’s explained this one yet:”I want to make love to you” from a stranger at a bar: sexual harrassment”I want to make love to you” from a boyfriend: a real turn onEnlighten me.
But Rocco, you very nicely (I thought) explained this yourself in Desire #1: Sense of Humour: Intellect, knowledge, wit, tastes. These things make l’amour worthwhile for us and it’s very rarely that people reach this level of intimacy in a bar. Also, cut us some slack. We have some heavy issues with casual sex. It’s only recently that casual sex wasn’t a one-way trip to pregnancy, societal rejection, stoning, etc. You guys have 6,000 years of relatively risk-free sex; women don’t. Also, if some guy in a bar told me he wanted to make love to me, I’d laugh, because he wouldn’t even know who I was yet. This said, I think your piece is a good contribution to mending the ravages of the war between the sexes.You’d think we were all a bunch of hedgehogs, terrified of each other’s spines and rolling up into balls at the merest touch of pained confusion.
And I was talking about everyday stuff (and not about rape)! Well, everyday stuff before I learned to avoid drama kings. They were doing the loud weeping, not me. Here’s a sample: “I want to be with YOU, but I think GOD is calling me to be a…a…PRIEST and I don’t WANT to be a PRIEST. WAAAAAH!”
The Church should thank God he didn’t become a priest, but he didn’t go to AA either. Alcoholism and religious guilt: a bad mix. Especially at 3 AM.
“I want to make love to you” from the stranger = creepy. “I want to make love to you” from the boyfriend = reciprocal (sometimes).I’ve played with the idea of sex-without-strings but when it comes down to it, I can’t do it. Mostly because of guilt but, I guess I do need to have a reason (i.e. relationship) to do so. Besides, sex with strangers is a risky game to play when there are tons of STDs you can get and when condoms are only 97% effective.Rocco, if a strange woman in a bar walked up to you and said that, would that turn you on? I guess it would have to depend on what she looked like, wouldn’t it? That’s not shallow.
There are always strings attached when it comes to sex no matter how you see it whether you are male or female. The longest string attached mostly unseen is namely your self worth.
Rocco however does have a point. I have been in my share of casual relationships. Nine times out of ten it has been the woman to propose this “casual” relationship to me. However the minute I casually see someone else, she “casually” gets upset and starts to cry. Of course this confuses our gender and leads to the drama that Dorothy touched upon.
Oh yes and if a woman said “I want to make love to you” to me in a bar I would think she had a sense of humour and considering that is number one on our list, that is not necessarily a bad start.
I read Rocco’s article and he’s bang on when he says men are simple. However, I hate to burst his bubble, but his list is only partially correct. Number 1 is important and I’ll give him that one. Number 2 is also important – but really number 3 and 4 are part of number 2, when a guy thinks of a cute butt he wants sex, and face it have you known any guy who didn’t think a back scratch was really just a form of foreplay. And number 5 – drama – is really something men don’t want. So to be totally honest, Rocco’s list of manly wants boils down to sex and laughter. While those wants are true, he’s missing a few other basic male desires. Men want a nice comfy leather chair that will go with them to whatever current and future home they will inhabit (it’s esthetic appeal to the opposite sex be damned). Men want a big screen TV and the freedom to watch whatever crap they want without having to endure condescending comments about Ahnold’s ability to wade through a hail of machine gun fire and kill all the baddies with a handgun. Men want a killer sound system, which lead into my next point. Men want gadgets – what gadgets you ask? It doesn’t matter, nor does it matter if they come from Radio Shack, Canadian Tire, Future Shop or Golf Town, what is most important is the gadget itself and the pursuit of same. But really, all kidding aside, all that men really want (and Rocco alluded to this in a roundabout way) is to love and be loved, and there’s nothing more simple – or complicated – than that.
Rocco (and any other men wondering why women just don’t shut the hell up);Calling a woman superficial for talking a lot is along the same lines as calling a man selfish for wanting to just sit in peace and quiet for a few hours. Or calling a man “in denial” because he’d rather watch TV than discuss the problem on his mind.Yes, women do talk much more than men–we pick things to pieces! It’s our way of figuring out the world around us, validating our experiences and feelings, and connecting with other people. Men and women are, socially/verbally at least, quite different: men *do* things, women *talk about* things. If I have a problem I need to solve, I may call a guy friend–after two minutes of listening to me describing the problem, he’ll suggest a solution. On the other hand, if I am upset, I will call a girlfriend–we’ll spend two hours picking the situation apart, comparing similar experiences, and analyzing details, at the end of which I will have a firmer grasp on the situation’s relationship to the rest of my life and the world at large, and I will feel much, much better.For women, talking is bonding: it’s our way of connecting with other people. It’s our way of creating intimacy with the people around us. At the end of that afternoon-long conversation with your (girl)friend about her roommate, you may be bored silly–but she feels very, very close to you, and often does not understand why you don’t feel the same.Although I’m generally not a fan of such books, I do very highly recommend John Grey’s _Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus_. I don’t agree with Grey’s every word, but his general ideas do clear up a *lot* of confusion about communication between the sexes. You see, men hide in caves while women hang themselves on rubber bands…aw heck, I can’t explain it, just buy/beg/borrow/steal read the darn book!
Valentino, some girls will say anything to make some boys like them. Girls who pull that “sure, it’s casual” crap are sad. Avoid them and date women who remind you of Lauren Bacall.
And I’m with MGB about the comfy furniture and the gadgets. Only for me, it’s books, paper, cats, and the life of the professional student. Some things really are more important than pair-bonding.
It sounds to me that based on these observations men and women want only the desired shopping list desired by those of their same sex. The idea of relationships, whatever degree of involvement and attachment, would seem to be an interchange and development that is unique to those involved and has the characteristic of mutual growth, pleasure and betterment of the individuals involved. By this sharing, interchange one transcends his sex oriented ennui. This does involves giving attention to the other but primarily insecurities of relationships are overcome by mutual constructive interaction and when your distinct identity together has been established then what you want from the other can, within reason be had by the asking.
For Rocco and the gang my compliments for the effort, content and courage of putting yourselves on the line. This is a great and needed forum on an expansive subject.
I sincerely disagree that men should be criticized for exhibiting interests in sex. To have perverse thoughts, and fantasies is not irrational or chauvanistic as some women may perceive. Being perverted, within reason of course is nothing but humanly healthy. Women that are appalled with the male fascinations on sex, should refrain from the gadgetry stereo-type for me. Reason being women have their own “gadgets” that they themselves are fascinated with, and as I understand it the population of women with this fascination is quite large. Just ask the good people of stores such as “Come As You Are,” “Kiss And Tell,” and “Party For Two.” ……Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Santo cielo mi aiuta, Valentino. What did they teach you at St. Pat’s? Go over that integrity of the human person and respect for women stuff in your Grade 12 Religion textbook.
Valentino, who’s criticizing men for being interested in sex? The sex drive is biological, just like thirst, hunger, or fear; it’s an integral part of us as human beings. I believe men are stereotyped as having higher sex drives simply because it’s more socially acceptable for men to talk about sex than for women to do so; I also believe women are stereotyped as being overdramatic because it’s more socially acceptable for women to express their emotions than it is for men to do so.
I pick on Rocco about his sex drive because he is and always will be a Virgo….Not that there’s anything wrong with that!
Well put, Jaywalker.
Dorothy,
I think being unsure about the men approaching you in bars all depends on the men who approach you and the mood you are in when they approach.
Some men are just good at honing in on or bringing out that mood to get rocked in women, which either leaves other guys with a roll model to follow, or feeling envious and inadequate. I was mostly left with the latter.
I had a friend who was known at university to be able to walk into a bar and basically throw a girl over his shoulder like a caveman and walk out, with the woman grinning all the way through the door. He was a dick to girls most of the time, but the more he was a dick the more they wanted him.
I guess this is a another riddle to be unfolded, because where most guys stand, to be popular with woman, the last thing you want to be is a nice guy. Just ask Eminem, he has Gloria Steinem’s graduating class of feminists buying up front row seats at his concerts.
Anyway, when it comes to drama, at least your friend was crying over love. Griping over a roommate for two hours? C’mon.
Lisa
I never said that looking at someone’s appearance wasn’t being superficial. And if I was single, buzzing and found her attractive, I’d take her up on her offer.
Jaywalker,
I never said that talking too much was being superficial. There’s nothing wrong with that.
But keeping a guy who likes you around as an emotional crutch in between between relationships, and in return giving him absolutley no sexual gratification whatsoever, that’s being selfish. And
why?
If you’re going to get a guy emotionally involved with you, have him open up his protective armour, and not open up sexually with him, it’s not a two way street, now is it?
Though I will agree with you on girls talking about things and guys doing things. When guys talk, they often need a third object, a focus, so to speak. For example a pool table or television. It’s more difficiult for guys to talk together and easier for them to do stuff together. The best example of this would be Armstrong and his pals going to the moon.
MGB
I disagree, I cute butt is separate from sex. For the most part it is not something you look at during sex. It is something that you can casually admire as she walks ahead of you in the supermarket, or when she gets up from the table to use the ladies room. Its not that you want to have sex when you see it, it’s more like eye candy.
But you are right about gadgets. i just least a top of the line laptop and until a few weeks ago, the only pragram that I did actual work with was notepad. The rest has been just for kicks.
Domenic
I thing that relationship is more about push and pull factors, much like sharing a bed. The closest positions to eachother are not the most comfortable and the most comfortable positions don’t lend to intimacy. In other words its a constant change between distance and intimacy, and where you find the position you really need, is often the one you open your eyes in
Too true, too true! Some people are snugglers, others are sprawlers–just have to find someone who fits with your style and your sense of personal space. So what does it mean if I fall asleep best all curled up tidy around him with my head on his chest, but wake up with one hand on the floor, the other in his armpit, head under the pillow, feet over the edge? If I roll up in the blankets and shove my partner to the edge of the bed in my sleep, does that mean I’m emotionally/sexually greedy, or just pushy?
Being emotionally involved with someone without sleeping with them *is* a two-way street: it’s called friendship.Getting involved (in any manner) with someone who may misconstrue that relationship as being a prelude to something more, on the other hand, is just plain shitty. I’ve had guys I liked hang out with me to make their exes jealous, get closer to my best friend, and/or boost their egos. I’ve known girls who’ve done the same. I’ve even seen people–both guys and girls–sleep with someone who liked them just for the hell of it, with no intention of continuing the relationship. One-sided love is one of the most vulnerable states to be in. When abused like that, it can really, really hurt. And piss you off.That said, if the girl in question knew you liked her and acted this way, she’s a ___ ___ and deserves to be ___ ___ __ in a ____. If however, she had no clue about your side of the story, she was just treating you like a friend she could talk to.
I don’t need my grade 12 religion text book to rekindle my knowledge of integrity and respect for women. I believe firmly I have both. I really don’t see how my comments exhibited lack of either.
Actually, Valentino, I apologize and take that back. I was disgruntled by your reference to women and gadgets, and I shouldn’t have been, since jokes on that subject date back to Aristophanes. But I do think that casual affairs are in themselves exploitative, just as I believe T and A advertising exploits men. If I were a man, I’d be pissed off every time I passed the Brass Rail’s lowest common denominator attempts to get my money.To me and Shakespeare, casual affairs are like food-eating contests or food fights: “an expense of spirit in a waste of shame”. And don’t yell at me: Shakespeare wrote that.
Very true Dorothy. Play with matches and you get burned. I have learned my lesson many a times. Casual relationships were my substituting for fear of commmitment. I have been committed for seven months now and the headaches are significantly less.
Rocco, I was thinking about your comments about your caveman university colleague and Eminem. I rarely listen to music and I knew Eminem only by his bad reputation. Well, when I saw him on Saturday Night Live I was stunned by how intense he was up on that stage. He was working at whatever he was doing, which included mesmerizing me. I am not sure how that works. I am similarly stopped in my tracks the rare time I see Brad Pitt cross my tv screen. At those times, I remind myself of a male friend who would stare slack-jawed at the supermodel Heidi Klum and mutter “That’s Heidi Klum. I like Heidi Klum” about every ten minutes.Anyway, some people just have that kind of charisma that passeth understanding.
Never would I have wagered that I would hear a Pro-Eminem comment from Dorothy Cummings. I must say I am pleasantly surprised. I was up in the air about him as well, until someone got me tickets to see his concert in Detroit last year. I was impressed quite a bit with him and have no shame in saying that he is quite talented.
Hey, I even saw 8 Mile! Thank goodness things aren’t that cut-throat at Syntactic Sunday, eh?
If you were reading at Syntactic Sunday Dorothy, and things were that cut throat, believe me you would not have to worry.
I’m not nearly as unforgiving about your admiration of Eminen. Himself and the thousands of women who admire him are what caused me to be less sympathetic towards women’s movements and is probably what caused Gloria Steinam to give up and get married. Women study feminist theory for years, and it seems to me the only people who feel the brunt of their doctrines are their henpecked boyfriends and anyone who has the misfortune of coming out to the open mic that night.This message is for all female Eminem lovers out there: you want nice guys like myself to defend your cause, you better pull your own weight. What’s the good of even helping out, when women still get weak in the knees for the “bad boy” ?
“YOUR” cause? What do you mean “YOUR” (i.e. you women’s) cause? I got thrown out of a “Women’s Day” parade once for having heterodox views. Women can be as divided over the best way to run the world as men can, so whatever viewpoint you take, some women are not going to agree with you. But, anyway, if you think you are supporting a cause other than your own, then the women whose cause you proport to be defending are going to smell your lack of authenticity in your clothing, my friend. Either you think patriarchy sucks for everyone, and it does, or so many men wouldn’t be killing each other or sending the young ones off to war, or you don’t.Due to some strange deficiency, I can’t hear lyrics, but from what I’ve read or been told, I probably wouldn’t date Eminem. This, however, doesn’t–obviously–prevent me from being caught in his televised stare. Some people use the rare gift of such spellbinding charisma for evil, some for money, and some for good. Meanwhile, there are a whole host of guys I, for one, cross off my mental list whenever they expound a view they assume will appeal to me as a woman, not knowing that I abhor politburo-style second-wave religious-women-excluding 1970s-bound feminism. So, Rocco, I hope the revolution you’re fighting for is yours too, or, well, it just might not pay off in other ways. Feminist virtue is its own reward, baby.
Divided over Eminem?I can just here the arguments:a: Eminem is a sexist pig who simulates killing his girlfriend on one of the tracts of his cds. Since women represent well over 50% of market spending, we have the ability to send a message to massoginists like this.b: NO wait! He’s so charismatic and dreamy! Maybe he’s just a bit troubled. We can change him! Besides, we like concerts!I know there are grey patches when it comes to any movement, but Dorothy, if women are divided over someone like him, OY!
Is feminism becoming an experience onto it’s own? Much like those choreigraphed gun battles that little towns put on during there annual festivals?
The back and forth, corrections, further thinking through of ideas, thoughts and feelings reveal something quite relevant. There are ambiguities, contradictons, idiosyncracies and pleasant and unpleasant eccentrics in and around all of us. In references to causes both as programs and the pre-occupation with cause effect relations we are really establishing a community of agreement and therefore developing a particular social cultural set of values within a specified context which we are already in. What is our true nature? How do we handle the issues at the margins of acceptance? These are always challenges out there and in a problematic context we are challenged even more. From my view not much seems to be left here in terms of open concepts. Once agreement is established between a few although a group that is very thoughful and accepting we have not dealt with what appears utterly socially unacceptable. Time to stretch the scope, parameters and mapping even further. Keeping in mind primarily the naturalist fallacy that shows that cause effect relations of purported truth does not hold in social interaction with its intersubjectivity as it does in the unit relational calculations of natural science. A bouncing ball in science is always a bouncing ball in a controlled context a human being is never a bouncing ball and never ever in a controlled context. Humans have thoughts, change their minds, respond differently at different times to similar and disimilar contexts, purport contradictions, have humour, play devil’s advocate, therefore lie; white and in other colours, get foggy,have emotions intense and otherwise and not always understood etc. etc. In other words they are hardly ever consistent and especially if they are trying artists as most respondents here appear to be. And my favourite we all have invidual value systems in flux and are constantly adjusting our ethno-culural presuppositions even if we don’t know what they are. The point of all this is that we should suspend judgement as much as possible and be more generous in accomodating people in our early interactions with them. We might be pleasnatly surpised with what we may discover. Let’s be practical and cleare about what we want but let’s not fall into the naturalist’s fallacy trap.
Rocco, your line about “your cause” reminded me of the great poet Gerard Manley Hopkins,S.J., who used the same phrase in a poem. I don’t have the poem in front of me, but his harangue goes something like:If thou were my enemy, O thou my friend/How wouldst thou worse, I wonder/Than thou dost/defeat, thwart me? Oh the sots and thralls/of lust do prosper while I /who doth spend life, Sir, upon thy cause…. (am getting nowhere, etc.) Now the difference is that you are talking to women about the social scene and Hopkins is talking to God about parish work. Both of you are utterly frustrated about something that you can’t really do anything about. Fortunately, I am assured by men a bit older than you that this woman-induced frustration wears off with age and soon you will know longer care who we want to sleep with and will care only about money, career advancement and cars. ;)
Oh, and in the case of my friends in religious life, food and whiskey.
I don’t support Eminem’s beliefs; I do, however, enjoy the cadences and clever rhymes of his work. However, you may be right. As a feminist, I should burn my copy of *The Eminem Show* along with all my Nine Inch Nails albums, not to mention my hundreds of ’80s big-hair metalhead tapes (there’s lots of sexism on them). As a feminist, I should only listen to artists like PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, and Alanis Morissette–no, wait, Tori is heavily influenced by NIN and she covered Eminem’s “’97 Bonnie and Clyde”–I guess she’ll have to go too. Dorothy, to avoid compromising your religious beliefs, you should listen to only bands like Whiteheart and Petra. And Rocco and Valentino, as Italians you are to commit yourselves to listening to the melodic tones of the three tenors.Rocco, shame on you for implying that a Good Feminist shouldn’t listen to–or ogle–Eminem! One of the main foundations of feminism is the struggle for freedom of *choice*. If a women chooses to wear pants, study dentistry, holds hands with a lesbian lover, or jump drastically off a cliff, she is taking advantage of her right to do so. Implying that making one of these choices forfeits her of her belief system is just buying back into the constricted, patriarchal views we’re fighting against. Am I any less a feminist because I browse through Cosmo in the grocery line, wear long flowery skirts, or fetch a beer from the fridge for my boyfriend?
Good point Jaywalker, although I would think twice about throwing out The Eminem Show. It is a great album, that is completely written and produced by him. Eminem has been compared to Madonna, that she loves to push the envelope with sex, and he likes to do the same by exposing the “Skeletons in his closet.” He is much more worth my time in listening to considering he writes all of his own stuff, and Madonna only writes some. Both have faced criticism, however I don’t think either can be taken as a template to formulate a woman’s barometer for feminism. Reason being, how seriously can you take Eminem dissing the pop stars, and cheese artists when he in fact dated Mariah Carey, the most unoriginal and annoying Diva out there next to Celine.Melodic tones and three tenors? Um no thanks there are more tasteful, musical selections you could have picked to stereotype Italians Jaywalker. You’re no less of a feminist for looking at Cosmo in the grocery line, and I am no less a chauvanist for looking at Maxim at Chapters every once in a while, and Eminem is not the deciding factor in this gender battle of ours.
Sorry, incorrect wording on my part, I am no more of a chauvanist for looking at Maxim magazine in a Chapters. Chiedo scusa Dorothy! If I wear a shirt with a gratuitous picture of Jenny McCarthy to an Ani Difranco concert what are my chances of getting out alive?
Argh! Jaywalker, from all your contributions to latchkey, I imagine you to be one of the coolest woman surfing the Net,stalking around town in black jeans and fantastic boots like a swashbuckling pirate on the high seas of urban living. Don’t tell me you equate feminism with “choice” as if the world were a big shopping mall of value-free merchandise. To me feminism is (or was) about extending (or demanding) human dignity to women. Think of those poor girls of Valentino’s who lied about being okay with casual sex; that was their choice but–man-it wasn’t conducive to their dignity. (Valentino, this is not a slur on you!) Even beyond that, feminism isn’t about choices within our grasp but asking why ALL women don’t have the same opportunities, above all enough food for their kids and a safe place to give birth as comfortably as possible. But end of sermon. I personally would never got a boyfriend a beer from the fridge without feeling damned uncomfortable about it. That’s a pretty loaded action.As for Cosmo, who the hell else is demanding that we worry about what men want all the time? Men’s magazines are interested only in what women want in bed; they never explain what else we want. (I know some women who want, more than anything else, the food banks to stock enough milk for everybody’s kids. Works for me.)
Why thank you Dorothy! I do in fact have lots of funky footwear and black clothes, although I’m not sure if I’ve ever buckled a swash….Our definition(s) of feminism remind me of the tale of seven blind men attmpting to describe an elephant. One’s holding the elephant by the trunk and saying, “It’s like a snake!” Another is feeling the elephant’s ear and saying, “It’s like a palm leaf!” Yet another is groping the leg and remarking, “It’s like tree!” And so on. They’re all correct, in their own ways–their definitions are based on their individual experiences.Yes, a major part of feminism is (re)claiming women(s) dignity and rights to essentials such as safety, health care, nutrition, and child care–you’ve got the elephant firmly ’round the belly on that one! I mention the freedom to make choices because it’s the result of decades of feminist struggle. Whereas I can (theoretically, at least) pursue a career in nearly any field, my mother was given the options of becoming a nurse, librarian, teacher, or secretary, and my grandmother’s choices were even more limited. Unlike my grandmother, I can wear pants or even ankle-revealing shorts in public. I browse Cosmo for giggle-inducing entertainment, not because I must refine my man-catching skils to secure myself a husband and–by extension–a place in society. I sometimes fetch my boyfriend a beer from the fridge because I like to do nice things for him (and he only asks if I’m already in the kitchen, in which case it would be ridiculous to say no), not because I am under his power and must cater to his wishes. Unlike previous generations of women, I have the power to choose to wear pants (or not), to ignore advice on flirting and fashion, to pursue my career goals, even to (gasp!) tell my boyfriend to get his own damn beer and one for me too please. Yes, we’ve got a long way to go towards securing safety, dignity, equality, and liberty for women–and I am grateful for the freedoms I have which are the result of previous feminists’ struggles.Women insulting men and, as Rocco mentions, ragging on their boyfriends in the name of feminism is like an eighth blind man groping the elephant’s excrement. Reverse sexism is an unfortunate side effect of feminism, but in no way is it actually a part of the feminist movement.
Speaking of sexism, Valentino, I believe that you, as a red-blooded male, would probably be tarred and feathered for wearing a Jenny McC. t-shirt to an Ani concert. You might be able to get away with it, however, if you posed as a rather butch lesbian! The sin of shopping at Chapters, on the other hand, deserves worse punishment, but that’s another column entirely….
Hi!
Will you be so kind to give me the address of some internet shop where I can buy cigarettes Marlboro?
i have no comment at all because i found your article too long and such a boresome!
Clement,
Right….yet you decided to take the time to comment on how “boresome”(if that’s a word) it was.